Roger McGuinn on Old Songs and New Tech
Bringing Legacy to the Age of Technology
March 2024
If you hear a jangly 12-string guitar, you probably get an earworm like “Turn Turn Turn” or “Mr. Tambourine Man.” Roger McGuinn is responsible for that. As a youth in Chicago, he was exposed to the banjo of Bob Gibson. Roger’s wife, Camilla McGuinn, tells the story on The Roger McGuinn Blog:
“In the winter of 1957, Jim’s (Roger’s) music teacher at the Latin School of Chicago, Miss Ganter, invited her friend Bob Gibson to perform for her students. Jim attended out of duty but didn’t expect much from another required school assembly. As he was clowning with his group of friends, his eye caught a glimpse of an instrument head stock poking through the door of the auditorium. It appeared to be a guitar and suddenly his interest was piqued.
Bob Gibson strolled on stage not with a guitar, but with a 5-string long necked banjo. At this revelation, Jim wanted to find the nearest exit, but after only one song of intricate finger picking and a personal story about the song Jim’s interest reawakened. He was amazed at the energy and sound that the Banjo created in the hands of an artist who believed in the instrument and the music. Bob finished his set of songs and left the building. Jim immediately found Miss Ganter and interrogated her about the music and style of Bob Gibson.
Miss Ganter told her student that it was folk music and if he was really interested in learning more about it, that a new school had just opened within walking distance of his house, called The Old Town School of Folk Music.” (You can read the rest of the story here.)
The freshly-obsessed young McGuinn restrung a guitar with banjo strings, “put a nail in the neck at the seventh fret and tucked the fifth string under it.” Eventually he took on the 12-string as his signature sound.
We at FolkWORKS learned that he’d be playing the Soka Performing Arts Center in Aliso Viejo, California, and we begged for an interview. Okay, it was me. I begged.
I was so stoked because I wanted to tell you about The Folk Den Project. This is a beautiful preservation of traditional folk music – not just preserving, but making the history accessible. In Roger McGuinn’s words:
In November of 1995 I began a project for the preservation of the music I love, Folk Music. Each month I would record a song, print the lyrics and chords, add a personal note and put it on my web site, mcguinn.com. I wanted everyone to have the opportunity to learn the songs and to be able to sing them with their families and friends, so downloads were offered free of charge. The original recordings were 11 KHz 8-bit . monophonic WAV files, far below CD quality. I have re-recorded those songs in 24-bit 44.1 KHz Stereo. To commemorate the 10 year anniversary of the FOLK DEN, this compilation contains 100 of my favorite songs from the project with many of the original notes.
This project is a true community service. Please take some time and wallow in old classics like Dry Bones, St. James Infirmary, Streets of Laredo; things you may have never heard like King Kong Kitchie Ki Me O. You can delve into the backstories of songs like The Twelve Days of Christmas or Molly Malone. Each track is a patch in the quilt of America; our cast-iron history. You didn’t think about Pete Seeger while listening to The Byrds, did you?
But every workingman’s song that went into Rock’n’Roll is our legacy, too: the music tells other stories you won’t read in history books. Songs are like finding old letters – you can hear what was important to listeners of that time.
me: Peg & Awl – I love that you brought this song to light. Explain why it’s important to preserve the backstories of these old songs.
RMcG: I feel the old songs and stories behind them are worth preserving because they’re like Victorian architecture. It’s regularly torn down to put up glass and steel buildings which are much less aesthetically pleasing.
me: Tell me a love story: the cheapest guitar you ever loved. Do you still own it?
RMcG: I recently bought a Jasmine guitar that cost less than $100.00 and sounds beautiful. It’s made by the Takamine company in Indonesia.
me: I often interview musicians who do other things: paint, make pottery or weave; build instruments. What passion–what vocabulary other than music–has stuck with you?
click here to see 5 webpages of transistor radios Roger has collected over the years. (especially this one.)
RMcG: I love gadgets of all kinds but especially electronic ones. A favorite pastime is giving lectures using audio/visual software. I do all the programming myself.
I thought about my circle of musicians, luthiers, stagehands, chemists – once they start geeking out over equipment, there’s no turning them off. So without giving away too much detail, I asked a few of my geeks what they might want to ask if they had the chance. The following questions are what they asked.
me: As far as music equipment (because I know people will want to know) you sit in with people. Do you bring your own favorite microphone or are you comfortable using what each sound engineer gives you?
RMcG: I record in my Pro Tools studio with a great tube condenser microphone, Genelec nearfield speakers on a Mac and send the recording to people I “sit in” with via email. (hint: in the notes for his Folk Den recording of Wade in the Water, Roger tells you about the equipment he used on the road.)
me: What has the journey been like over the years to be able to get a good mix in the monitors to support that harmony singing?
RMcG: Well, it’s sort of like cooking. You keep listening and mixing until it tastes good.
me: Do you have thoughts about AI? Many (ok a guy I know) predict AI will start writing great music in that 60s rock genre again, but humans will be picked to perform it. A next generation of rock star.
RMcG: Chat GPT is useful for songwriting. Just name a subject and style and it pops out in about 10 seconds. Then you can rewrite it to your liking.
me: WHOA. I wasn’t expecting to hear that. As peer reviewer for a science-based poetry journal, I’m sensitive to people turning in work they churned out of a robot. But that’s not what Roger McGuinn is talking about.
Folk activist and multi-instrumentalist Joel Tepp gave me his take:
McGuinn is a collaborator. “Mr. Spaceman” and “Ballad of easy Rider” are the two I can think of that were written solely by him. The majority of the major band-written songs are double or triple co-writes. A lot of the major hits were great interpretations of the songs of others, starting with Dylan. ChatGPT is the perfect co-writer from a business point of view. He (McGuinn) earned 25% to 50% of the publishing on the co-writes. He gets it all when the computer is Mr. Spaceman’s co-pilot.
In addition, his arrangements and playing have always been brilliant. He has the skills and habits to take ChatGPT, know what to use and what massive pile to throw out or totally rework. (He is) able to take command of the suggestions from AI (or other writers) and inject his innate musical sensibility, which no AI product can achieve… at least this early in the exploration. Sensing how to edit and electrify Dylan and just plain electrifying the 12 string and pairing it with Pete Seeger’s “Turn Turn Turn.” All of it a unique brilliance. Just like Seeger before him heard the compelling honesty in traditional songs and knew how to expand that into something genuine that could command attention on popular urban radio.
JT is correct, of course, about all of this. I’ve used AI to truncate very lengthy artist bios, tweaking the robot’s output so it sounded like the author. The robot is a piece of equipment, technology like any other tool.
My last question for Roger McGuinn was this one from luthier Randy Parsons: As far as technology merging with (but not replacing) live performances. It seems we still want to hear humans, and wooden guitars with strings. Have you seen (pictures of) shows at the Sphere in Las Vegas? Very immersive. Do you see technology merging with old school rock concerts as an evolution??
RMcG: I agree that there will always be a place for humans singing and playing.
Roger McGuinn is right, of course. There’s nothing like the camaraderie that gathers around a campfire, or a fishing hole, or a guy and a guitar. If you’re lucky, you can make all three happen at once.
Roger McGuinn and his talented wife, Camilla (I love her photos!) are touring again, driving from Florida via I-40, “America’s Main Street. We really enjoy these road trips. It’s fun to see the scenery changing from farm lands to red mountains,” he said. I don’t think they’re gonna stop. Expect a diverse show with music, magic, and legacy.
Check this list of dates and locations to see where their path crosses yours:
Apr 06: Soka Performing Arts Center, Aliso Viejo CA
Apr 09: Carriage House Theatre, Saratoga CA
Apr 12: Livermore Valley Performing Arts Center, Livermore CA
Apr 17: Vashon Center for the Arts, Vashon WA
Apr 20: Edmonds Center for the Arts, Edmonds WA
Apr 23: Patricia Valian Reser Center for the Creative Arts, Corvallis OR
May 01: the Center for the Arts, Grass Valley CA
May 04: James R. Armstrong Theatre, Torrance CA
May 08: Egyptian Theatre, Park City UT
May 11: Argyros Performing Arts Center, Ketchum, ID
May 23: Francis Marion University Performing Arts Center, Florence SC
Aug 30: The Space at Westbury, Westbury NY
Sep 07: Colonial Theatre, Pittsfield MA
Sep 11: Isaac Harris Cary Memorial Building, Lexington MA
Sep 14: SOPAC, South Orange, NJ
Sep 21: Wall Street Theater, Norwalk CT
Sep 28: Pablo Center at the Confluence, Eau Claire WI
If I haven’t impressed upon you *enough* how important the Folk Den Project is, stream or download here. Share it with your children, and your children’s children. That’s what it’s for.
Get a copy of the 10-year anniversary of the Folk Den Project CD here.
Follow the entire road-trip blog of Roger and Camilla McGuinn here. I promise it’s a lot of fun!